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Brandon Vera

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Postby Latvian Lunatic » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:02 am

The problem as I see it.

JT V Kimbo.

Situation:
JT GnP on Kimbo for a solid minute, unanswered.
Ref asks Kimbo how he's doing. Kimbo gives the ok.

Result: Fight continues till the end of the round (1 minute)

Questions:
Should it be stopped because Kimbo failed to improve?
If there were two minutes left, how long would the ref have let it go?
Does the ref ACTUALLY know if Kimbo is ok in the moment?

VERA v WERDUM

Situation:
werdum has Vera in full mount and is peppering Vera. Vera is scrabling, but not getting out. Ref asks Vera how he's doing. Vers gives the ok.

Result: Fight stopped after about 20 seconds of GnP (which was having mixed success)

Questions:
Did the ref give Vera have enough time to improve his position?
If there were 5 seconds left, how long would the ref have let it go?
Does the ref ACTUALLY know if Vera is ok in the moment?

The situations were similar and the ref hadled them both rather differently IMO. The problem is Although each ref is a bit different, you expect a little consistancy in the job they do from fight to fight. DM is all over the place. Look at Mario Yamasaki.. He lets fights go a bit longer, I'm certain the fighters know that. Herb is a little quicker to stop. I'm sure fighter's know that each ref is more likely to lean one way or the other. Noboday can know what DM is going to do, thats the impossible part.

Knowing that. My question is this.. IF this happens a third time. WTF does the fighter on the ground do? Go into panic mode to get out and risk getting murdered? Or does he try to ride it out? There is no way to tell with him.
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Postby fightDR » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:24 am

Good assesments there LL, some good points...the first cooment i would make is that the JT, Kimbo situation is rather unique cos i really can't help but think it was a screw job and Kimbo was given the W.

My thought are this if the guy is being dominated on the ground and being hit constantly he has to improve his position. Buck him off, reverse him even give his back. If none of them works and he takes the covering up and excepting being hit over and over then fight over. If there is really no time left then yeah let it go, but if its been 10secs and will be that and maybe more too then stop it.

The guy on the bottom can complain all they want, but they however have made the choice to except they have been getting their ass whooped and can do nothing about it. Brandon has to realise Werdum was owning him and although they might not have been KO punches he was being hit with they were landing enough.

As for the refs, i would love for them all to see things the same way and let the fights flow however it's all about interpretation and how you read the situation at that very moment. (although the Kimbo JT fight was a total fuck up, but thats a 1 off).
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Postby FEDORisGOD » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:25 am

Fetal position= Unintelligent defense = Loss regardless of how much time is left in the round.

Its not the ref's job to know how much time is left in the round, its the refs job to break up the fight when a fighter isn't intellgently defending himself.

Dont bring up the Kimbo fight because that shit was thrown. The Vera stoppage IMO was solid.
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Postby Kensei » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:47 am

The one underlying thing that I keep coming back to is who the fighers were.....First off Kimbo would have to be fucking dead for them to call that fight, shaw would make life very hard for the ref if he called that fight "early". Secondly the UFC did not have as much riding on Vera winning, infact nothing. It worked out very well for them, they go what they wanted...Vera at LHW and not dancing with the big boys.
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Postby Latvian Lunatic » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:53 pm

I go back to my original point. DM is an inconsistant ref. I agree with Big John that each ref is a little different in their own way... Which is fine. But, he's all over the place...


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Postby GrappleorWrestle » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:51 am

It's not the ref's job to know how much time is left in the round. His job is to make sure the fighters uphold the rules during the fight. He is in there to protect the fighters. But you cannot tell me that the clack clack of 10 seconds left does not register with them. And yes I do know there was more than 10 seconds left in the Vera fight.

The only reason I even thought it was strange was because DM is not consistent. Heck, even Herb Dean is consistent with his stoppages.
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Postby Kensei » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:13 am

DM is basing his stops on things outside of the ring, the politics and the event. Not right. The UFC was on PPV and he knew Vera was "just another fighter" were Kimbo was the flag ship (and no I am not calling him fat!) of the company and he wants them to survive so he gets the pay days he wants.

I did not like either call, but for different reasons.
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Postby FEDORisGOD » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:09 am

If you forget about the Kimbo fight and objectively analyze the Vera stoppage then its beyond me how someone would think the stoppage wasn't legit. Vera did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate he was ok. Ate about 20 unanswered punches, was fully mounted, didn't try to pull Werdum into half guard nor did he try to buck him off to better his position. Vera simply turned over to fetal position and continued to take blow after blow. I stand by my opinion, the stoppage was good. The Kimbo fight was BS but Kimbo is elite xc posterboy so it made sense for them to not stop it when Thomspson had him in trouble.
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Postby Kensei » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:27 pm

FEDORisGOD wrote:If you forget about the Kimbo fight and objectively analyze the Vera stoppage then its beyond me how someone would think the stoppage wasn't legit.


If you forget about the Kimbo fight you are 110% correct. But only if you forget that fight...and maybe a few others, but we will stick with that :lol:

FEDORisGOD wrote:Vera did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate he was ok. Ate about 20 unanswered punches, was fully mounted, didn't try to pull Werdum into half guard nor did he try to buck him off to better his position.


He was yelling to the ref "Im okay, and waved him off at one point just before the end" But according to the rules he was not improveing possition and covering up is not a defense.

FEDORisGOD wrote:Vera simply turned over to fetal position and continued to take blow after blow. I stand by my opinion, the stoppage was good.


I agree, and for him to say he was winning that fight from the get go is silly, what is next "I was beating the fuck out of his hands with my face" defense??? :lol:

FEDORisGOD wrote:The Kimbo fight was BS but Kimbo is elite xc posterboy so it made sense for them to not stop it when Thomspson had him in trouble.


The problem lies not in if this was a good stoppage, what kills me is the double standard that should NOT exist. So friggin what that Kimbo is the poster boy! The ref should not give a flying monkeys ass about that at all! he does not need to know the fucking time, how hard a punch or elbow is landing or the organization he is in or even what fighters he is watching....In that possition, with no improvement and the guy on top hitting the guy on the bottom with out any answer to the attack...fight is over. if that is not the case then we are creating a situation with multiple rules for different fighters. NOT GOOD. I dont really blame the ref, I blame the Athletic bodies that govern the fights, they need to step in and say "this is when a fight is stopped" reveiew the Refs decisions and really look past the money at the safty of the fighter and adhearing to the SAME rules for each fighter.


now if you believe all that and think the same way I do, start the Chant boys "KENSEI FOR MMA GOVERNOR"!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby fightDR » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:55 pm

Go On Kens my son, You got my vote...here my roar there big fella....haha.

I do agree with the stoppage of Vera 100%, time left Irrelavant, he was getting dominated hit with countless strikes and determind his fate when he couldn't buck him or better position and covered up. He got his ass handed to him by a ground fight master.
He should just give big ups to Werdum, no shame losing to him prob 2 ranked HW in the UFC, imo top 5 in the world. So would get more respect for saying yeah, guy was better than me and whopped my ass.
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Postby Jewish-Spy » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:30 am

One thing that Vera got owned but what I don't understand is why Werdum would not fight him again when asked.
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Postby fightDR » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:11 pm

Why should he fight him again, He is moving up the Rankings, vera moving down them. he is not gonna get near the title by beating him again. He needs to fight the top end guys and Vera is not in that bracket in the HW's. Werdum needs better if he is gonna solidify himself as a top 5 HW in the world and simply put Vera will do nothing for him as he is so far away from that class!!!
Love all mma, and big UFC fan but I do miss Pride.
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Postby qwerty » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:26 am

How come he didn't want to fight Machida? He turned down the Machida fight. LOL. If he would've beaten Machida, he would've automatically been in the championship contention... I guess if he loses, three in a row. LOL. OUCH. Playing it safe or being a pussy?
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Postby fightDR » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:13 am

qwerty wrote:How come he didn't want to fight Machida? He turned down the Machida fight. LOL. If he would've beaten Machida, he would've automatically been in the championship contention... I guess if he loses, three in a row. LOL. OUCH. Playing it safe or being a pussy?


Thats a hell of a question.....I gotta say its probably a bit of both. Then again who can blame him, Machida is looking awesome and looks almost unstoppable. Not many would want to fight him I imagine.
Also losing 3 in a row has meant curtains for other guys in the past, so playing it safe is pretty smart for him right now.
However part of me says, you thought you were hot stuff at HW and weren't so its time for you to shut up or show up at LHW...personally i think machida would out class him on the ground!!! :lol:
Love all mma, and big UFC fan but I do miss Pride.
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Postby qwerty » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:57 pm

Jewish-Spy wrote:Who didn't want Machida? I'm sure Chuck would love to fight Machida.


Brandon Vera didn't want to fight Machida... but so does so many other fighters.
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