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Muay Thai vs Kung Fu vs ..what most people tend to forget...

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Postby tang-ao » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:11 am

Agrees with Kensei. There are martial artists and then there are people who do martial arts. The student's intelligence, natural fighting prowess and demeanor will have a direct influence on their ability to absorb the lessons of their teacher and build their skill independent of whatever style they learn.

Techniques that are taught might have a positive or detrimental affect on a student's skills or abilities but even with a bad teacher certain students will rise above.

Trouble is, is that there are those who have very little experience of real fighting on the street, bars, pubs and clubs who have never seen the shocking violence orhad their skills tested but who are prepared to make general grandiose statements based upon very shallow knowledge of fighting arts. Training in a certain style will not imbue that person with supernatural fighting skills or give them the edge if they have't got the skills, nous and warrior spirit. It's the individual. My first question was entirely rhetorical.

I'm also inclined to believe that the whole 'who can beat who' argument is suited to a less mature audience that thinks martial arts is about beating someone and fighting.
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Postby GrappleorWrestle » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:45 pm

But you do know there are people out there that want to think their style is the best and since they are taking that style of MA they have to be one of the best. The problem here goes back to the old B Kung-Fu Movies that always have masters from different arts fighting to see who is the best. Another way entertainment has tainted the MA.

But I am one of those people that have very little experience of real fighting. Besides the dojo and tournies I have nothing. I have always been able to talk my way out of confontations and I am proud of that. I have seen the consequences of those street fights and bar room brawls. In no way do I want part of that.

And there will always be people that will catch on quicker and be a natural. That's just a given. But I have seen people that are naturals at fighting and get owned by someone that works harder than them. Being a natural at fighting will not always give you the upperhand. Hard working does pay off.
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Postby Kensei » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:27 pm

hey Grapplewrestle You are actually doing the right thing by walking and talking your way out of the fights....I wish I was as smart as you when I was young.

Oh, and everyone wants to think that their style or the style they are training in is the best...it is natural. but not true.
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Postby malaclypse » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:29 am

yup I've seen the consequences of ballroom fights as well... I used to work in a pub. One of my mates got his neck broken in such a fight... (don't worry he is still alive but his neck column is reinforced with some steel.)

That is why I advice against streetfighting unless you are prepared to go all the way ( which may result in prison time )
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Postby soldierboi187 » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:50 am

in the real world there is no style to street fighting and no style to self defense it is who thinks quicker on thier feet and on thier back and who is more willing to survive not saying all street fight are to the death but it is who has more motivation training in a style teaches you where to strike and how but when it comes down to the moment if you have to pick up a 2x4 and hit the guy in the head then thats what has to happen the best form of self defense IS talking your way out of the situation even better way is to not get into the situation to begin with respect people in your surroundings most street fights like everyone is saying happens in a bar or a pub dont piss the guy off at the end of the bar its simple but if you do be prepared to go all out if you must the best style is nothing and everything train in as many forms and styles as you can or atleast study thier movements so you will know how to counteract them
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Postby J-Loc » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:21 pm

there both good but combat wise muay thai is better
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Postby Kouch » Wed Nov 29, 2006 1:58 pm

my si-gung grandmaster leung ting chain punched the snot out of a muay thai boxer. it was vicious. and he does kung fu...wing tsun kung fu. its one of the only kung fu arts that are more about street fight situations. 8)
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Postby icedtea69 » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:12 pm

Street situations are greater aided by the instruction of Kung Fu. Combat situations, without a doubt, are greater aided by Muay Thai. It just depends on what you are looking to do.
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Postby FightbacK » Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:38 pm

I read a book called "The Art of Fighting Without Fighting" by a guy, Geoff Thompson, who spent several years as a bouncer. He then fell out of love with mindless violence and in love with the martial arts. This is a guy who is considered a fighting guru and mentor by many, but this book suggests the opposite of violence and teaches how to disarm situations that threaten you or your family. I really enjoyed the book and his attitude to life.

In the field of MA he pioneered this idea of 'Animal Day' - a time set aside in the gym for experienced students to pressure test their arts to understand how they really work in the real world - UFC in the dojo if you like.

I think that a good mixture of lots of arts is a useful approach. The only two streetfights i've had in my life - one I got my rear handed to me (and influenced me to take up kickboxing), and the other ended up as MMA by default. The guy launched at me and knocked me to the floor, me on the bottom. From Wing Chun I knew about attacking the throat, and from watching UFC I knew to keep the opponents head controlled if he is on top/ in mount. I fed the throat grab underneath, the control on top and applied a leg-on-leg lock I had learned at a seminar. This took away his base and I was able to get him on his back, then I went into mount and stole Pat Smith's early UFC elbow pummeling G&P technique til he was out.

The thing that surprised me was how calm I felt once the fight started, and I wanted to stop when he was unconscious - I felt bad for him, he was just a drunk guy with a grudge against the world. Yet I was terrified and thought he was an asshole before it went 'live'. I didn't feel hate, just adrenaline. Anyone else find this?

Having said all that I still think talkdowns are better than takedowns on the street, but soemtimes there is no choice.

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Postby Kuark » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:28 am

Wouldnt it be best to learn one that would be more effective faster one, first and then train in a little of the other?
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Postby FightbacK » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:42 am

Very possibly! I'm no expert on these things.

I trained in different arts each about a year, not by design but more by moving from one place to another for jobs. I know there are schools that teach stand up arts alongside grappling arts. It would be interesting to see how their students fare against students that have been 'upgraded' from one art to the other - e.g trained in one art solidly and then added another.

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Postby Kensei » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:20 am

for self defense the best art is......any one that you train hard in. It is not they style but the person that makes a style work for them. As long as you are not doing some goofy Bruce Lee bird calls and dancing around you probably will do okay. Train hard and work with real life situations in training, get in shape and that is about that. Luck and timing.....that is all....no style is intrinsicly better than another. anyone that says differnt wants your money or is an idiot paying someone who wants your money.
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Postby Kai » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:09 am

malaclypse wrote:
jmath679 wrote:
Kensei wrote:
It doesn't really matter. My point is that on the street you should fight without rules. Style has nothing to do with it. All I wanted to say is that a conversation on styles where it concerns defense is a useless conversation. It serves no purpose.

It's not about "look how good I am at what I do, my penis is longer and can take more kicks than yours, my balls are iron balls" it's about a proper mindset and how to change from a common mindset to a more vicious mindset, it's about the shift from angel to warmongrel.

If you do not agree, you should not fight on the streets. I only can speak for myself, but if someone would touch one of my loved ones, he'd better be prepared because I don't hold back, and torture is an option in my dictionary.


I agree with our statement to a degree... but if I were to be in a fight, I would want to make it as humiliating as possible for the other guy... This is of course assuming that he isn't trained... I train in Capoeira, BJJ, and Vale Tudo (the brazilian three) and if I was fighting an inexperienced fighter, I'd dance until they charged, at which point, I'd roll into a heel hook and make him see god... that's really all there is to it...
Were he trained of course, Vale Tudo/BJJ is the only way to go
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Postby Kai » Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:15 am

The best thing that any person can do to be competent in defending theirselves is to be competent in the art of fighting.
It takes maybe a week of training anything before a person can see the difference between a trained and untrained fight.. at this point in time, it is a matter of devotion as to whether or not they can apply what they've learned... I have seen one week trainees go toe to toe w/ 6 month trainees just because they really dedicated themselves to it. Every free second, they were thinking about it, and when it came training time, they were out there the same amount of time, but trained 30 minutes more in that hour...
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Postby StaffGuru411 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:46 pm

stevebags wrote:
NitZR wrote:kungfu is good for self defence. but you can also learn some judo taekwondo or MMA for self defence aswell muay thia isn't that good. I think you would be best helped with a street fighting course!
Taekwondo and kung fu is not good for self defence, look at Krava Maga or Jap JJ for real self defence


Agreed. I took Krav Maga for like 6 months, and Bas Rutten even had private lessons with the Instructors at the school, so it was sweet seeing their self defense they take seriously by paying Rutten to come in and tecah MMA for defense.

But what I liked most about the Krav classes were that they took the most simple moves from Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, and Jiu Jitsu and applied them to practical street scenarios. Lets face it, its not really realistic to try a flying arm bar on the concrete street, etc. And THE MOST important thing Krav Maga stressed

FITNESS!

They have a simple philosophy. If you're not in shape, no matter how many moves you know? You're not gonna beat anybody on the street. Period. But if youre in shape and know only the very basic concepts of real self defense? You'll likely win any street scenario.

Very practical system Krav.
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