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The Perfect Combo

Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Asa87 » Tue May 19, 2009 2:16 am

Muay Thai is all I need stand up, Judo for inbetween (clinching and TD) and BJJ on ground.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Tue May 19, 2009 4:32 am

First off TKD's pretty kicks will get your ass handed to you in a real fight or even in the ring. you have to be AWSOME at TKD to get a kick off that will land and do damage. being OKAY at it wont do at all. You would be better off to do MT and just skip the TKD.

But their is one thing that you forget, most styles have strong points and weak points. Every style is good in its own way and bad in its own way. TKD guys tend to be good athletes and fast. But they lack defense and they forget that not all targets will stand bouncing waiting for a flashy kick to come in.

For mid range, Judo, Greco wrestling and Sambo. For on the ground Judo, Sambo, BJJ and wrestling. All are good.

And remember you could have the "perfect" mix of styles and still suck ass because it is not the combo of styles but the person putting them together.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Asa87 » Tue May 19, 2009 7:12 am

I wish it was like films and arts like Shaolin Kung Fu worked in real street situations and you could butterfly kick anyone who messed with you.

Unfortunately most the time it is over with one punch, which isn't seen coming.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Wed May 20, 2009 4:24 am

First off Muay Thai is not the best, nor is TKD or Karate or Judo or any style. I have written so many articles about the BS "my dick...er style" is better than your style! Anyone that says that a style is the best...obviously is in need of a reality check and probably has blinders afixed due to the level of self or instructor imposed hypnosis.

I have seen a 80 year old Tai Chi instructor beat the hell out of a golden gloves boxer, A 50 year old Judoka toss a Thai boxer so hard you could hear the shoulder snap! And my instructor who is 72 tossed a TKD 9th dan around like a rag doll and swept him and made him look silly. Oh, and my grand father at the age of 71 beat the living tar out of three kids that were all TKD 2 or 3 dan fighters with his old school sambo. NO, Style is never the issue but the person using it.

Some styles have some inherited issues however. TKD's refusal to use their hands tend to be their down fall. If you get into a fight and can only kick, no matter how special and exciting the kicks, you fail because fights are never at one distance.

Karate tends to be more mid range, even the kicks are never left way out in the long distance range, so they can get tagged alot by TKD guys if they can not close the distance, however that seems to only last for one or two kicks then they get inside and work the TKD guy.

Judo/wrestling/BJJ/Sambo guys tend to be very good up close and on the ground, but if a fighter keeps the distance medium and long distance the fight is going to end with the grappler bloody and sorry he missed the morning boxercise classes.

And yes, MT has issues to. Mostly in the blocking area. Block a kick with your forearms is fine, but try and stop a pin point accurate reverse punch to the nose. Yah, they are tough but eating to many punches, no matter who you are, on the street will finish the fight. Aside from that I have noticed that some MT guys suffer from the same issues that TKD guys suffer from "EGO" issues. No style is perfect, no style is the best. Combos are better especially if you have a good athlete that is also a smart fighter.

In short, TKD can be good, Judo can be good but it all depends on the guy standing in front of you and the skills and ability to apply them that the practitioner has. A style is only as good as the person using it.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Wed May 20, 2009 8:44 pm

For the most part I totally agree with you. But for you last point. I would say that SOME of the more junior martial artist are a bit Cocky but most of the senior instructors I have trained with, even world champions like Tanaka and Ueki are not cocky at all. But I see your point.

Please dont take my comments as a personal attack or comments to you personally, it is just that over the last 30 years of training I have tried to let people know that it is not the style but the person and I have trained in Judo, Karate, Aikido, Kick boxing, Kendo, Thai boxing, TKD, JKD and a few others and no matter what I basically see that their are great instructors and bad instructors, good coaches and bad coaches and great fighters and bad fighters. IN ALL Styles.

Best to you!
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Thu May 21, 2009 4:18 am

I think it comes from being very confident, enough to admit the short falls and also strengths of a person, style and tradition. Tanaka was one of the best semi contact fighters in Japan before contact fights were allowed. He was seven time champion and he told us about Yaguchi sensei (his senior) kicking his ass all over the club after he won his third and fourth world titles against the best fighters the world had to offer in Karate. This was the day when "semi contact" meant only knocking the teeth out of the face and not killing the guy!

I also had an instructor, Mr. Oye who taught me Judo. he was the highest ranking Judoka in Manitoba and he once told me that he was "not that good"! Yah, I saw him throw a guy around for 30 minutes one time and found out the guy he was tossing around like a rag doll was the US champion Judoka from the olympic training center!

They have confidence in their skills and understand that NO ONE is perfect and no style or martial art tradition is perfect!
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby tennessee mma » Thu May 21, 2009 7:34 pm

bjj, boxing, and judo
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Fri May 22, 2009 4:41 am

Lets see, they have confidence in the skills they posses, not the skills they picked up BECAUSE they train in a SPECIFIC style..

The difference between Confidence and Ego is that a confident person is still realistic. They can say, you know I am good enough to defend myself but my style still has holes, I still need work and pretty much anyone can beat me on a fluke and some because they are just better.

Ego is when a guy says, " I am that damn good" "XYZ style is better than any other style and can beat them all" " Of all the martial arts in the world anyone not training in my style is a fool and easy to beat for me and my students/friends in my style".

Most masters are confident with out being cocky because they realize that this would be foolish. I have seen guys that others were scared to train with, scared to spar with, get their arse handed to them by old dudes that were very down to earth. All this proves to me is that everyone is beatable, every style is beatable and NO style is better than the next because even thinking this way proves you just dont get it!

When one understands that styles are imperfect and people are imperfect it does not lead to a hightend mental level, it leads to a understanding that Martial arts style is not as important as the individual, their training and LUCK!

See, when the UFC first started out it was Style vs Style and when BJJ came in and Gracie was a fighting athlete with something no one had ever really seen before he won big time, he took everyone out and BJJ was improperly crowened as the best martial art in the world. The thing that many people forgot was that he was fighting a bunch of "week end warriors" and the odd Pro fighter who had Zero Submissions training....or not to the level he had. TKD and Karate clubs in the states started offering BJJ classes after the instructors ran out to week end seminars and began working on BJJ at home.

fast forward a few years and the Wrestlers learned GNP and they started taking out BJJ guys and taking strikers down and grinding both guys into the mat and winning right left and center. Next thing you know the Wrestler was dubbed the king of the ring and every club in the land added a wrestleing component to their curriculum.

A few years after that Mo Smith and Pete Williams grounded the king of GNP and strikers started winning Pro fights with timing and well placed kicks. Next thing you know Kickboxing was seen as the thing to do. Thai boxing schools particularly started bouncing up everywere, hell even TKD studios in Canada added a "Contact Thai" class to their already over bulging curriculum. The kick boxer was seen as king and every one was learning the fancy Ram Thai and throwing on shorts with some cute ancle socks!

Eventually a balding chubby fighter in Russia began to make a impact in MMA and he was seen as the P4P best in the world, he took on freak show fights to prove that not only is he good, but he can destroy the strange odities that society can bring forward for him to rip appart. I have now see Judo clubs in Winnipeg offer Sambo training when I know for a fact that the instructor has NEVER seen a sambo coach let alone trained in Sambo.

the point is that as long as we have people that mistake great competitors and killer training regements for a style that can offer the general public the PERFECT style or the PERFECT skill sets we will suffer from the ignorance and silliness that we have been seeing. My one hope is that we watch Lyoto Machida tear Rashad appart Saturday so that the Shotokan people can start to benefit from the ignorace that we see in the general public right now...after all it is the best style right :)
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby DisciplineHopes » Fri May 22, 2009 6:20 am

how about taking a bit from each?!
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Fri May 22, 2009 2:57 pm

I Think that is the best idea for MMA. If you are in it for the sport of it and not the tradition then I would really look at a whole bunch of arts with eyes wide open and try to get the best from them and fill the holes with other styles.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Tue May 26, 2009 3:37 pm

Shadow wrote:Personally, the only time I've heard my style is better, unbeatable and the like is in the movies. I know some cocky guys, but none have gone to that extreme. You can have an ego and still no the shortcomings of your style. I think that thinking is out-dated, not to say that some thinkers or the lack there of, this hold to mine is better than yours. I think most of us hold to some styles are more better than others, however. That should be relatively apparent. One only has to read a few of the threads. I can agree with you on no style is better, and hold the opinion that some styles are better than others, with being hypocritical.

Every time I go to a club to work out that is not my home Club I hear it, every time I went to a THai boxing school I was told that the Thai school was the best. I trained with a BJJ guy that swore up and down that his instructor was the better of the instructors and better than a Gracie instructor. We had a boxing coach that worked out in one of the gyms we ran a club out of and we never got over hearing about how a boxer would kill a Karate guy any day of the week. After a while I simply nodded and walked away to roll my eyes. I gave up trying to tell just anyone that a style is a style and a fighter is a fighter. I have had the chance and opportunity to train with many great masters of several different styles and many great figters that were never called masters. The one thing I got out of them is that the masters respect styles and know that a great student will be great in almost any style.


Shadow wrote:Perhaps, heighten mental level was too strong of words, though, I believe they still hold true. The confident fighter, is better of than the egotistical one, typically, right? I just meant better thinking, not guru, enlightening or any thing close, just better.

I can agree with this in that they are more open minded and better to judge with out ego and ignorance getting in the way. I think that is kind of what you mean.

Shadow wrote:On the luck & training thing, I agree in a sense that training will give them better odds at winning, knowing a win is never gaurinteed. Perhaps, it may be the same thing?

Yes, this is 110% correct. I have seen some weird things were guys that never faught a day in their life KO'd a boxer or Thai boxer in one punch, that is part luck part part shock. But the more training you have, if you have luck on your side you will do well.

Shadow wrote:On the first UFC fights, I don't think they crowned BJJ the best in the world. I think it undoubtibly raised the ranking of BJJ in the good and bad MA. Furthermore, I don't think, persay, a guy practicing a standing up karate style for 20 years would just say, "My style sucks or their style is better." Most likely, it just helps show what their style was lacking. The next step would be to incorperate it; since, a BBJ practitioner kicked their butt then it safe to say that BJJ would be a candidate to fill the void.


That was my point. They raised the ranking, but they did "crown" it the best by saying they just showed the world that BJJ was the best...their words! I had seen guys in the club give up Karate overnight after watching the first few UFCs. but the business of running a club was very hard and is very hard. We had a influx of students when Chuck Norris was big, when Bruce Lee was big a buddy who taught Kung Fu had a tone of students, Van Damme and ( no lie) The Teen age Ninja turtles brought in a tone of students and Segal pushed Aikido to a new level. I actually saw guys say "yah but on the ground that style is the best, and fights go to the ground 99% of the time". This stat is wrong by the way! :wink:

Shadow wrote:DisciplineHopes - I agree whole heartedly. I believe Kensei and I basically agree with each other, but are debating the small points and specific wording. That is fine and good, if we are not to question wording, how can we hope to understand the thought they represent?
I agree, we agree on most parts, now we are just hasing out the finer points.

Shadow wrote:Kensei - If you feel like it's a dead point, it's okay with me if you want to drop it. However, if you would like to continue that too is totally okay with me.
LOL. It is never over until both sides understand the others points and agree to not see each others sides or agree they both agree.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Thu May 28, 2009 5:06 am

Shadow wrote:About the egos out there, I believe you 100% that their are MA-ist out there that claim their style is the best. Closest I have experienced is that my style can be this one or that. I suppose that is close enough. It just I haven't personally run into someone, saying my style is the ultimate. Still knowing this, I think that kind of thinking is becoming outdated.

Funny you say that. Last night I taught for my instructor and one of the younger girls came up and said "my cousin is a Kyokushin guy and he says his style is way better than Thai boxing or other Karate styles" I just thought of our conversation and laughed, then I told her let him think what he wants. Funny thing is one of the juniors started defending our style and I basically told him to save his breath!

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: "I can agree with this in that they are more open minded and better to judge with out ego and ignorance getting in the way. I think that is kind of what you mean."
Yes, one must be open minded to grasp the simple concept of practioner over style. To go the extra step would be to hold to Bruce's philosophy of "no style" using what works for you from what ever style.

Again with the Bruce lee stuff! (Not just you) Let me tell you what I told one of his students, Bruce lee did not have an original thought...probably ever! That is not an insult by the way. What bruce lee did was take others thoughts and say market them better. if you read his books and know he went to school for philosophy you will put two and two together and see that he read alot of other peoples thoughts, and then said them aloud with a "martial acent"!

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: "Yes, this is 110% correct. I have seen some weird things were guys that never faught a day in their life KO'd a boxer or Thai boxer in one punch, that is part luck part part shock. But the more training you have, if you have luck on your side you will do well."
Yes, I agree; although, the luck factor is hard to totally grasp. I hear and experience MA-ist say, "unexperience people are hard to fight." This is the case I believe because they are unacustomed to their aqword movements. Beyond that, how does one explain "he was lucky." The word luck seems to carry some mystic connotative bagage with it.

it does have a mythic connotation and it really should not. I mean "getting a lucky shot in" sometimes is just that...."I swung for the fences and did not know if I would connect, and when I did I felt him buckle" Muhammed Ali. I mean lets face it even the best sometimes just swing! Yes you can say that some pick thier shots and plan the fight out in their head, see a shot opening and mentally take the challenge of getting it in...but others just train hard then go out and bang...and if they land one that is great, if not well they dont.

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: "That was my point. They raised the ranking, but they did "crown" it the best by saying they just showed the world that BJJ was the best...their words! I had seen guys in the club give up Karate overnight after watching the first few UFCs. but the business of running a club was very hard and is very hard. We had a influx of students when Chuck Norris was big, when Bruce Lee was big a buddy who taught Kung Fu had a tone of students, Van Damme and ( no lie) The Teen age Ninja turtles brought in a tone of students and Segal pushed Aikido to a new level. I actually saw guys say "yah but on the ground that style is the best, and fights go to the ground 99% of the time". This stat is wrong by the way!"
Perhaps, your right and my opinion of flux is misguided due to my lack of worldly MA contacts. Though, I haven't experienced it, I'm sure it could and has happened as you said, some MA-ist just up and change style just because of a new style leader.
That quote is way, way off. I going to go out on limb here and wager that most of the street fights you see stand up only, with the exception of the guy being knocked down and getting kicked while he's down. In my experience it's 70 - 30. 70% stand up.
(By the way, what is the official stats on stand up and ground fighting, and where would one confirm such information?)


I have seen people drop one style and move on way more than not over the last 30 years of training. sounds funny but I know one guy that started off with me in Karate (started just after me) went to Kung fu, Judo, and aikido...then when the Gracie clan won the first few UFCs he moved on to Jujitsu. Now he is doing Thai boxing and....get this...ninjutsu! What a maroon!!!
I would think that any stats you get on street fighting would be questionable at best! I dont remember anyone watching me fight at the bars with a clip board taking notes! :mrgreen:

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: "LOL. It is never over until both sides understand the others points and agree to not see each others sides or agree they both agree."
LOL. A die hard 'til the end! Are we there yet?


Discusions and debates are based on one side taking a stance opposed to the other side, not always 100% opposed but at least a big portion. common ground often ends the debate, but that is when a nice conversation can start to happen!
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby DisciplineHopes » Thu May 28, 2009 1:27 pm

yes...all of the above is the best option in my opinion. but IF having to choose 3...id say boxing, bjj, and quite possibly TKD. there again you could mix up any three and be pretty kick ass with correct use.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Fri May 29, 2009 4:14 am

DisciplineHopes wrote:yes...all of the above is the best option in my opinion. but IF having to choose 3...id say boxing, bjj, and quite possibly TKD. there again you could mix up any three and be pretty kick ass with correct use.


For stand up: Thai boxing, Karate ( a practical style) and boxing...I would avoid TKD it is way to tip tap sport crap for me. But I guess some TKD is not bad...even if 98% are McDojo clubs.

For grappling (read not subs): Greco wrestling, Judo, Sambo and Olympic wrestling.

For Grappling (Subs): BJJ, Niwaza oriented Judo and Sambo.

Basically if I could only pick three it would be Karate, Sambo and BJJ.
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Re: The Perfect Combo

Postby Kensei » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:23 am

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: "Funny you say that. Last night I taught for my instructor and one of the younger girls came up and said "my cousin is a Kyokushin guy .................

Was the defending student saying your style is better?


No, she knows better. She was just telling me how silly others are! My students and those I teach for my instructor know that their is no perfect or "better" style.

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: Again with the Bruce lee stuff! (Not just you) ...........

He may not be the origanator of the thought, but I give him the credit because as far as I know he is and I first learned his way of thought (no style-style or taking what works for you, etc.) after reading his "Way of Tao" (or called something like that). I know he studied philosophy, and like most philosophers they complied ideas from other thinkers, rivals, instructor, who ever. Creation is changing was already is so to speak. It is also like George Washington. He was not the 1st US president, but try telling that to the average Joe who has not researched it...your fighting a loosing battle. It just that ingrained. Enlighten me, who is the origanator of this thought and the Bruce stuff as you put it?


LMAO, Enlighten me! :lol: Kind of Ironic Neh? Anyways he studied at the University of Washington (been to his old uni and his grave, go if you can it is great) any ways, His influences include Taoist writing, alot of Jiddu Krishnamurti, and Buddhist writing as well. He took most of his blending ideas from Krishnamurti and created his way of thinking. I am told that Alan Watts was one of his other big influences as well.

Shadow wrote:Kensei quote: "........
I would think that any stats you get on street fighting would be questionable at best! I dont remember anyone watching me fight at the bars with a clip board taking notes!"

Where else would you get it from other than the streets. We are talking about street fights here, not sparring and/or in class instruction? I just asked because you seemed to disagree with the 99% stat. Where are you getting your information? Me personally I just draw on my own experience, what else is there? I have read that most fights go to the ground, but where does that come from? I certainly do not know.


I have studied self defence/martial arts for 30+ years and at one point I was roped into teaching self defense classes. At that time I read and researched all the writen stats and the like to try and design a class that would best suit the students in "real" situations. It was at that time that I was reading the crazy stats that just dont make sense.

Shadow wrote:Also, some pointless ones...So, where does that put us. I think we are in the vast majority in agreement, wouldn't you say? This is a debate on small points. How can it be seen any other way. On alot of things we discussed, I didn't change my opinion, it just opened my eyes to see yours, which doesn't take anything away from mine own. I assume much is the same with you.


Could not have said it better!


Shadow wrote:Kensei: What happened to MT? I take it, MT is a side thing with you, and not what you consider your main art?


I have to be clear here because the phrase "kickboxing" has new ideas to it. I am and probably always will be the old fart her. When you all say you did kickboxing or do kickboxing you probably mean some version of Thai boxing with shorts and bare feet. When I said I did kickboxing I mean that I wore long pants and did "full contact Karate". I dont do that anymore as the thrill of competition has been lost on me. I had a amature record that was decent but I basically was never tall enough for my weight division and felt that just training was what I wanted. Not only that but I get far more from sparring in the dojo than I ever did in the ring.

I like watching Thai in MMA fights, but boxing, kick boxing and the like are kind of lost on me now. Give me a fast, explosive point match over a drawn out battle with pillows on the ends of your fists any day. And knock down karate battles are more interesting to me than 10 rounds of tip tap kicks and boxing. :wink:
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