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TKD vs. Capoeira

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Postby Congo » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:07 am

I am a graduado of Capoeira, I am not one of the Flashy players, i am More of the Fighters.

I have seen and heard people talk bad about Capoeira without even been into a real combat with Capoeira. A few months ago after I got my Graduado level, I was so happy that i told my friends at school. Then I got the same reaction from some guy I do not even know, he was a Black belt TKD (Graduado is to be compared as 1st Dan).
That day I was tired of hearing those things cause I am doing allot for Capoeira and people keep on Bashing it in. So I took the challenge and to make the Long story short. A Capoeira kick can knock you out. And now the guy that does TKD trains with me when we have free time from our trainings.

And Also my Teacher has taken the Challenge against a Muay Thai Fighter and won.

But this is personal exp. If you really think Capoeira is not an MA, go to Brasil, into one of the Favelas (Ghetto) and Challenge one of the Capoeira "players". You will see that he will not just dance infront of you.

Capoeira has allot of stuff that you will never see if you are not a Capoeira "player"
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Postby StaffGuru411 » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:44 am

Shadow wrote:What about the hard core style taught in Korea, or the military TKD? Have you seen those guys, I don't think there weak.

TKD bashing seems common:I was first in line. With all that being said, I still can and do agree with most if not all that you said above, but I know about it only being suited for point tournaments. It just there tournament system sucks. That one point hit then stop, or coulda-woulda point technique is horrible to test your skill, but is that a reason to conclude that is TKD is score point style, not worthy of true combat?

So, is it that you think it is unstreet worthly to the average Joe or to a practioner of another other art?


The Korean military doesen't teach TKD to its troops, they teach Hwarang Do which is the closest to an MMA type style the Koreans have than anything. A lot of small joint manipulation and submission holds..

Trust me, a soldier isnt going to be able to rip off 5 tornado kicks in the battle field or a jump spinning hook kick or any of those silly kicks.

Not unless they want to get shot.
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Postby kitsu526 » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:55 am

Taekwondo would be more effective than Capoeira especially if the guy or girl is korean.
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Postby kitsu526 » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:00 am

StaffGuru411 wrote:
Shadow wrote:What about the hard core style taught in Korea, or the military TKD? Have you seen those guys, I don't think there weak.

TKD bashing seems common:I was first in line. With all that being said, I still can and do agree with most if not all that you said above, but I know about it only being suited for point tournaments. It just there tournament system sucks. That one point hit then stop, or coulda-woulda point technique is horrible to test your skill, but is that a reason to conclude that is TKD is score point style, not worthy of true combat?

So, is it that you think it is unstreet worthly to the average Joe or to a practioner of another other art?


The Korean military doesen't teach TKD to its troops, they teach Hwarang Do which is the closest to an MMA type style the Koreans have than anything. A lot of small joint manipulation and submission holds..

Trust me, a soldier isnt going to be able to rip off 5 tornado kicks in the battle field or a jump spinning hook kick or any of those silly kicks.

Not unless they want to get shot.


also remember there are certain degrees of Taekwondo. Now days it's a sport performed by high schoolers and athletes, but a serious Taekwondo user can seriously put a big owie when you Do expect it. 10 years to become truely proficient in the style like my grandfather. Matter of fact his hands are like stone knives and kicks like a mule for 70 year old.
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Postby mma fubar » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:30 am

hmm i think that bjj is an amazing art and u can dismantle people with it, but just not on its own,. i have studied shaolin kung fu for 3 years and that has helped me alot on strikes and defense and i am also taking muay thai soon as u need to have bjj incorperated with another art
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Postby corvo » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:29 pm

It’s amusing to read these four pages of poorly informed bravado. I am curious if most of you guys often speak on subjects you know little or nothing about. I have trained in six fighting arts in the last 40 years. Capoeira for the last 15 yrs.

If I were to bet on your advance TKD practitioner and an advance Capoeirista, I would place all my money on the Capoeirista. Granted it’s not the art, but the artist that would win. But then I know first hand on how they both train. I used to be ranked a second degree BB in old style TKD (gen. Choi’s).

The thing is most of you folk don’t know much about Capoeira. Looking at games in a Roda or even going to some classes will only show you the show. With only one person here having gone through advance training in Capoeira....

Do you guys really think that a fighting art would survive if it was not effective at fighting?

Capoeira was not designed to fight fairly in a sports arena. The rules of all sports tournaments hinder Capoeira from most of it’s techniques. I’ll tell you more if you ask respectfully…

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Postby kitsu526 » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:07 am

You do have a point on the artist not the art, but also if you think about...every art have it's strength and weaknesses. For a Caporeira user should know that such large movements are dangerous in a fight. The same, for tkd I wouldn't use in a fight unless it's a simple basic kick like a knee kick or a side kick. I think the most important thing within a fight is to know "the flow" of the fight. Mastering oneself to become a shadow that can't be touch. A flow like a river that can't be caught. To push or pull and control the current that control the tides like the ocean. Once caught, and drown. Master that and the fight is over before it starts. I rather use basic kungfu and karate with a hint of other style to fit my body and personality.^^ my opinion.
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Postby corvo » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:17 pm

I totally agree, If one can't totally fight one's fight. Then I hope one has trained for the other posibilities.

Capoeira has a great many styles, and many different types of games to help one develope for differing scenarios and attitudes. Showing oneself wide and open in Capoeira has a perpuse. A good practiciner should draw you into these openings for an unexpected counter.

thanks for asking.

folks please do ask about Capoeira. I won't bit your headoff. I will try to explain our approach as best I can.
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Postby GrappleorWrestle » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:45 pm

Some arts are preserved due to tradition, or at least some aspects of certain arts, not because of their effectiveness.

I for one have not trained in Capoeira, but I know a few people that have and they even tell me that 95% of the people that take it do not know the fighting aspect of the art. And this is what gives Capoeira a bad name. Same thing goes for TKD. I am not saying either cannot be effective, I am just stating from what I have seen and been told by practitioners of these arts is that most of people do not and cannot use it effectively.

Generalizations can get you into trouble, but 99% of generalizations are based on fact.
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Postby corvo » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:55 am

Grapple,
There are alot of people in Capoeira in the states and Europe that don't want to learn how to fight. 95% is more like 75% in the states. in Brazil it's maybe 5%.

The thing is that one does not measure a Martial Art by it's water down version. But by those that do the art well. I hope you agree on this.

Like so many MA these days, most practitiners are doing it for other reasons other then to learn or really use it to fight an agressor. It's just a hobby for a great many. But are you really going to blame the Art form for this, or those teachers who are just there for collecting the Money?
to each, his own
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Postby GrappleorWrestle » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:25 pm

I do not blame the art, but those that are trying to take advantage of gullible people through the art.

Do I measure the art by the "water downed" version? I measure the art on what I have seen and be told by those that practice the art. Like I said some generalizations can bite you in the ass. But if all you see is the "watered down" version you really cannot base it on anything else.

I take MA for self-defense and because I love it. Yes, it is also a hobby, but it is also a life style. I learn how to fight so I do not have to fight.

Others take it for their reasons. Do they have good or bad intentions for learning an art? I cannot tell you that. I can only judge what I have seen, both arts and practitioners, and those are my opinions, as are your opinions your own.
Not to cross train cripples the martial arts, without it you can become a mechanic, but never an artist.
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Postby corvo » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:32 pm

GrappleorWrestle wrote:I do not blame the art, but those that are trying to take advantage of gullible people through the art.

Do I measure the art by the "water downed" version? I measure the art on what I have seen and be told by those that practice the art. Like I said some generalizations can bite you in the ass. But if all you see is the "watered down" version you really cannot base it on anything else.

I take MA for self-defense and because I love it. Yes, it is also a hobby, but it is also a life style. I learn how to fight so I do not have to fight.

Others take it for their reasons. Do they have good or bad intentions for learning an art? I cannot tell you that. I can only judge what I have seen, both arts and practitioners, and those are my opinions, as are your opinions your own.



I think that we’re mostly in agreement.
Though if one practices paddy-cake Karate, one who calls it karate is only have right.
There are a great many things that appear to be one thing, and then it turns out it was/is something else.

It’s not always a matter of opinion, some times one needs to look at the historical facts. Did you know that hallo Gracsy(sp) got knock out by a Capoeirista in a Vale Todo match (Carlos something). There are many other fights in Brazil with similar results. One’s opinion is ones prerogative. But It’s always wise to learn when one is incorrect or has some misconception., don’t you think?

One can believe that Capoeira is not very good for fighting, and totally underestimate one, who then serves you the concrete. I’d rather not make that mistake, thank you.

Grapplerorwrestler, You need not tell me that Capoeira is not effective for fighting, in your judgment, I already know, first hand that it can be very effective. I’ve proven it on many of an occasion, it’s not my opinion. If you choose to hold to your opinion, that is your prerogative.



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Postby GrappleorWrestle » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:43 am

corvo wrote:I think that we’re mostly in agreement.
Though if one practices paddy-cake Karate, one who calls it karate is only have right.
There are a great many things that appear to be one thing, and then it turns out it was/is something else.


Well yes, but if that' all a person has studied or seen how could they know if there's anything different other than "paddy-cake" karate?

corvo wrote:It’s not always a matter of opinion, some times one needs to look at the historical facts. Did you know that hallo Gracsy(sp) got knock out by a Capoeirista in a Vale Todo match (Carlos something). There are many other fights in Brazil with similar results. One’s opinion is ones prerogative. But It’s always wise to learn when one is incorrect or has some misconception., don’t you think?


First off I am not at all impressed with Gracies, so using one as an example to back up your argument really does not validate it. Second, historical facts are usually written by the victorious, or those oppressed by the victorious and have a biased opinion. And third, my notion is not a misconception or incorrect. As I have said my opinion is based on what I have seen of the art. Now, if what I have seen is not it's true form that's a different story. But since it's all I have seen I really cannot base my opinion on anything else. On another note I have seen it happen to the arts I have trained in and other arts in general.

corvo wrote:
One can believe that Capoeira is not very good for fighting, and totally underestimate one, who then serves you the concrete. I’d rather not make that mistake, thank you.


On this point I agree, but I am not one that will underestimate any opponent. That is a fatal mistake. Any time I train or am fighting someone that I know I can completely manhandle I still have the mentality I am going against a world champion and must do my best.

corvo wrote:
Grapplerorwrestler, You need not tell me that Capoeira is not effective for fighting, in your judgment, I already know, first hand that it can be very effective. I’ve proven it on many of an occasion, it’s not my opinion. If you choose to hold to your opinion, that is your prerogative.


Why yes it is, and everyone is entitled to their own. I am not saying that Capoeira cannot be effective, I am saying what I have seen and been told by those that study their Capoeira that it's not very effective. Are their other forms of Capoeira out there that are effective? Probably. And since you do not know what I have seen you cannot judge my opinions effectively.
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Postby corvo » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:31 pm

Here is one type of hard game many Capoeira groups play. It is a controled semi-full contact game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3Z7UQZnBY


I hope it gives you a better Idea! on some of the things we train for.
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Postby The Jonzz » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:15 am

Are you talking about the "dancing" capoeira in a real fight?
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